Why It’s So Hard to Value Barn-Find Cars
A lot of ink has been spilled about so-called “barn finds” and unrestored “survivor cars.” So much ink in fact, that I’m almost wary of one more article. Almost. Barn finds, and their sometimes wacky sale prices, are something I deal with and get asked about as an appraiser on a regular basis. So, here we are again.
With the recent RM Sotheby’s “Junkyard” sale (yes, it was honestly called just that, and props to the auction company for not trying to sugar-coat the facts) of the late Rudi Klein’s, well, junkyard, conversations about barn finds have been buzzing. The usual questions about them have come up again. Especially this one: Why do cars in need of full (and in some case more than full) restorations sometimes sell for much more than similar cars that are complete, look good, run, drive, and don’t have a 40-year collection of mouse poop in them? This dynamic certainly played out many times at the Rudi Klein junkyard sale, and even after those expensive auction prices, plenty of these buyers will be keeping their restorers in new full-zoot Silverados and Hawaii vacations for years to come. And believe it or not, that’s OK.
For those of us who have been appraising for a few dozen or more years, the phenomenon of survivor cars and barn finds has been a game changer. Think about this: As the collector car world has been adopting many of the sensibilities and language of the fine arts world, barn finds fly in the face of the “rules” of fine arts. Generally, the ranking of top car values goes this way: Excellent-condition, survivor cars are followed in value by the excellently restored examples. So how can barn finds, which are generally in far more deteriorated condition than an honest and usable survivor, sell for more than any of them in some cases?
To put this in perspective, let’s say we are valuing some works in the world of fine arts. You have two similarly sized paintings, both by Monet. They are of the same bucolic scene, likely painted in the same week, both signed by the artist. They have the same provenance, owned by the same family for just over 100 years. But one no longer has its original frame, was involved in a fire, and the painting is split in the middle by an ax used in putting out the fire. Which one is worth more? Logic would dictate that the undisturbed example is worth substantially more. Right now, with classic cars, this scenario is currently (but I would argue not permanently) turned on its head.
It’s important to keep in mind that in the classic car world, there is a distinct difference between a “survivor” and a “barn find.” A car can be both a barn find and a survivor, but few are. Let’s define the differences.
Survivor cars are well-preserved vehicles that are, in a sense, historical artifacts. Their preservation is impressive and their originality is both rare and impossible to replicate, so they are highly desirable. They retain most of their original surfaces. These surfaces include paint, chrome, exterior trim, glass, seats, fabrics, carpets, gauges, headliner, and interior trim. A survivor should retain its original engine, transmission, rear end, drivetrain, wheels, and frame or chassis. Wear parts are generally excluded in defining a survivor. Wear parts include the battery, tires, wiper blades, exhaust, brake pads or linings, filters, and other miscellaneous bits. In short, most of the physical parts and surfaces of a survivor car will be the same ones it had when it first left the factory.
This is where things get complicated with survivor cars, though. On the mostly cosmetic side, what about repair damage? A repaint done when a 70-year-old car was just 5 years old? How about replacement vinyl or leather? Carpets? Added equipment after the car left the factory, such as air conditioning in 1950-70s cars? On the mechanical side, questions can arise when a transmission was replaced, but how about an alternator?
Barn finds are the easier of the two to define, because their definition isn’t as strict. I have seen cars described as barn finds that are everywhere from weak parts cars all the way up to untouched and unspoiled cars that went right into the (mythical) barn (often a garage or warehouse) with 200 miles on them. The latter are full on survivors, too. The former are just barn finds, which can also include wrecks or cars that were in a fire, a flood, or some other disaster. Occasionally they are just parts of cars that are missing major components.
Like a survivor, these more deteriorated barn finds have unrepeatable originality. The difference is that they will need significant (and expensive) restorative work before they ever get on the road again. It’s a bit irrational, then, for such cars to bring top-dollar prices at auction. But there is a sort of just-discovered or buried treasure mystique to barn finds that excites the imagination. For the owner or restorer, barn finds can also represent a sort of blank slate, an opportunity to change or personalize a car in ways that would be a bit gauche on a cleaner example, and downright frowned upon on a survivor car. There’s no exact science to any of the variables that go into barn finds or their appeal, and the bidders in an auction always have different tastes and motivations from one sale to the next. Some barn finds bring huge money. Some don’t.
Regardless of people’s reasons for paying top dollar for a barn find, one of the things I often have to remind myself as an appraiser is that people don’t always act in their own best interests (well, at least what I perceive to be in their own best interest, anyway). And you know what, that’s fine. People are allowed to do whatever they want with their money, and it is clearly not the appraiser’s job to let their own feelings get in the way of rendering an opinion of value. That value opinion must be, for a market appraisal, based on examples that have been offered, or previously been offered in the marketplace.
Appraisers don’t make values; we report values as we find them in the marketplace. As of right now, there are still huge barn find sales that defy logic. As to how long we will see their prices encroaching on or even eclipsing the top values, let’s just hang on for the ride.
I have a barn find I bought this February, a 1959 Cadillac Flat Top that was in a dilapidated pole barn. Needs everything but I’m working on it gradually.
Three homes to my near north on my side of a Philadelphia upper middle class suburban street sits a silver over red Porsche 356 of some vintage under a car cover on the concrete pad that was once a garage. About 15 years ago, the normally absent home owner showed up following a flat bed trailer with the Porsche aboard it. The trailer lowered the Porsche to the ground and the owner turned it on and drove to to the concrete pad where it still resides. I first offered him $5K tat day for the car, but eh said “the brakes were badly rusted. ” I offered him $ 10K months later when I saw him again. The owner knows that I have refit and/or restored British roadsters. He said he didn’t think the car as worth that – so I asked why are you holding onto it? He didn’t answer.
The car is not a basket case yet from what I can see, so it’s still worth tens of thousands as it sits to a collerctor.
So sad,
Richard
Barn find is perhaps the most mis-used term in the classic car hobby. Farmers rarely waste valuable barn space on old cars. They are either valued enough to be put in a shed or warehouse, or much more commonly, they are left outside. I have been hunting classic cars for three decades, and I have owned several hundred cars. I have pulled cars out of sheds and garages, but never a barn. I get what people are meaning when they say barn-find. It is not a car that has always been nice like a nice survivor, but it has been neglected for decades and is now valued for whatever reason. Anything can be restored and lose it’s character as an old looking car, but a car is only original once or twice. You can restore a lot of fun out of a car.
a fool and his money is more appropo in the case of partially intact incomplete hot mess barn finds than ‘beauty is in the eye of the bungholio’
Maybe I’m confused here… isn’t a “barn find” a car that was “found” in a “barn”? Lot’s of comments debating the value of the car, how it was found, and what was done with it. I restored a 35-year “barn find” Datsun Roadster and it’s not worth much even after turning it into a reliable driver. I’m not seeing how availability plays a role
That “Barn Find” that was driven for say a decade and then parked is likely to have more of the hard to find parts intact and in place on the car. You can bet that the strange one year bolt that holds part X to part Y and has been out of production is probably still there. That switch that people have to replace with some hack fix probably still works or can be salvaged. All the loose goodies that came with the car new are likely to still be there. The point is that it is a lot easier to restore what is there than replace what is not there.
I point this out as I am about to junk a 260,000 mile 2005 one owner Scion xA, That I have replaced with a second owner Used 2017 Chevy Bolt EV. While not a great loss to the automotive world, it is interesting to see just how much stuff I have for the Scion compared with how much of that stuff has managed to disappear from the Bolt EV.
The Scion has three sets of keys, two remote fobs, two Toyota provided Scion Key chains, the number tags for the keys, the factory manual in it’s case with most of the first aid kit that I didn’t use, the welcome to Scion CD rom, the original window sticker, and all the interior tags that came with the car, the used once spare tire along with all the tools. Other than some bandages the car has pretty much all the goodies it came with.
The Bolt came with 2 fobs, a charger, the tow eye, and a slime compressor and goop kit. They even took the privacy cover for and the false floor the storage area. I ended up chasing a lot of parts that I not just wanted, but needed for this car, and I had trouble sourcing some of these items and it is a 7 year old car that went out of production last year and went through very little change over 7 model years.
Again, it is easier to fix what what you have than replace unobtanium.
A car that has been sitting can be hard to value as most times you can’t just start them up and give them a test drive. Usually they have a small chain of ownership, so there might be some history available. Verify what you can, as sometimes the story could be partially true.
Like any car, you have people that will think it’s a chunk of gold, and those who might not be interested in it even if it was free. Whether a survivor or something that has been sitting, you need to honestly look at everything. Sitting for years many times is very hard on a vehicle.
That Playboy Pink Mustang may have a Marti Report that makes it a 1 of 1 with how it is optioned. In reality it is worth what you are willing to pay for it. A simple thing like color may appeal to you, or make you run.
I had several cars to sell 2 years ago when my dad died. They ranged from completely restored, to project status that he left that way for decades. The most interesting/infuriating part of getting them all sold was listening to the pretend car experts telling me what the car was, and what I should sell it for. Everything I sold went for a fair price based upon that car’s condition. I had a 1941 Willys jeep fully restored, a 1934 Plymouth PE 4 door sedan painted and on chassis with all other parts stashed in various places in the garage. A pair of 1939 Fords- one coupe, one tudor sedan. The coupe dad owned since 1963, it was a streetrod that was totaled in 1979, put back together with part swap parts, and never completed. The tudor sedan was a gorgeous original car, paint, upholstery, glass, engine and driveline. He tried to push start it when it had a weak battery, and it ran off on him and wrecked into a tree on his property. That car had been disassembled as well, all replacement parts were hanging from the rafters painted and ready to go. I had to listen to prospective buyers talk of chopping the car and installing an LS engine and painting it lime green. Ultimately, a gentleman found the ad I had created, bought the tudor and all its parts for a fair price. He put the car back together and it looks like brand new. This overvaluation of “barn finds” has reached a point that makes it prohibitive for the average person to buy one and make it a useable car again.
Farming has changed and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find barns. Barn finds, however, continue to turn up.
Hello Dave,
Enjoyed reading your perspective on the subject of Barn Finds. In addition to some of the other comments made, I believe using nomenclature like…Patina, Provenance, Tribute, Matching Numbers as well as Barn Finds benefit both the seller and the buyer at some point. Albeit terms that have been used and abused and don’t necessarily meet the technicalities or definition. However, these words put enough of a marketing spin on it to gain the desired interest from both ends. Whatever ones means are, the “Inclusion” factor kicks in. For the seller, that entails seeking the highest price listed on the Internet, regardless of their vehicles condition. For the buyer that allows for a sense or feeling of “exclusivity.” Criticism will always be opinionated. That’s just human nature…Continue to Innovate not Duplicate.
I think there is a significant difference between a barn find car and a field car. A field car has been sitting for a long time out in the elements. In any climate, except for the desert, the field car is going to be a major rust bucket. Often it has sunk into the ground and the chassis, floor and trunk pans and lower quarters and fenders are rusted completely away. Commonly the windows have been shot out and the interior is roached. Almost always animal infestation. On the other hand if the barn or storage shed is fairly weather tite the barn car may not have major rust issues. Field cars are almost always parts cars unless they are extremely rare and valuable. But people believe they should be equally valuable.
You know you are a hick if you’re mowing your lawn and you find a lawn mower. I have made barn finds in my own barn.
I believe that many rusted out, damaged hulks are bought for the VIN tag!!!
This article is definitely base from the view of an Appraiser. Part of the vehicle transfer registration process in Ontario Canada is getting an appraisal done to establish value for tax purposes. When working with Appraisers I had a few suggest that it would not be wise to purchase said car, as the repair / parts would be well beyond a good driver price in the market. I agreed, but could afford the nice running example and went a head both times with memories and experience’s I will keep for the rest of my life time.
The garage, barn , stalled project doesn’t necessarily make the most sense financially. However the attachment and connection awakening a sleepy old car is priceless. I don’t see myself selling either one that I have done.
Covid 19 got a new group of people interested in restoration, I included but I did not put more money in it than the finished product was valued by the insurance coverage ,however my time in this project is of a different set of parameters, 3 years @150hrs. per year was a priceless learning experience.