Piston Slap: This Sabre Rages Against a Throw-Away Society
Adam writes:
Sajeev,
Four years ago, I needed a cheap daily driver for my 65-mile commute. I found a one-senior-owner Buick LeSabre with 90,000 miles on it for $3400. As I drove more and more, I noticed some things such as an occasional hard shift and a shudder from the transmission when it shifted from 1st to 2nd, and an engine tick that appeared when the engine warmed up (turned out to be a cracked flex plate).
It has served its purpose well, never stranded me, and has been reliable. As for repairs during the past years, it has needed the following:
- Rear Air Shocks
- Tie Rod Ends
- Radiator
- Re-charge of the A/C
- Flex plate
I chalk up all the above to regular maintenance on a 19-year-old car with 113k miles, except for the flex plate. How that happened even stumped the mechanic.
Finally, the transmission has come to bite me, though. I have attached a video. I suspect that it’s probably the torque converter, as it whines in gear without an additional throttle input. I’ve always suspected it needed a pressure solenoid switch to solve the shudder and the hard shift issue that comes up occasionally.
I took it to a transmission shop, and guess who has a rare 3.05:1 gearset instead of the regular 2.86 gearset in all the other LeSabres? ME!
The shop said that since the 3.05 gear set comes with the Gran Touring suspension, he is having trouble finding a rebuild kit for it. So that leaves us with the following options:
- Plan A: Take the transmission apart and hope and pray that the parts it needs are available. If not, I’ll have to pay to put it back together broken. If all goes well, though, the price is $4,500, and a one-year, 12,000-mile warranty.
- Plan B: Purchase a rebuilt transmission and install with a three-year, 36,000 mile warranty for $4,700.
So here comes the dilemma: I have a 19-year-old car with 113k miles on it that I paid $3400 for, with roughly $1500 in repairs that now needs a large $4700 repair.
I also have two other vehicles that I don’t want to start driving daily. I’ve started looking around at what I could buy for $5k, and honestly, the options could be better. They’re usually younger but have way more miles than 113k, and are cosmetically challenged. I don’t mind driving something old, but I don’t want to drive something that looks beat up.
I had the Buick checked over, and other than needing the transmission work, the only current need is the air conditioner compressor clutch, which is a bit noisy and could stand to be replaced. However, this car doesn’t “feel” like it’s in a death spiral and on its last wheels. (I’ve owned those cars and know the signs!)
I’m not overly attached to the car; however, cosmetically, it’s very clean. Although you do see LeSabres still around, most of them are on their third and fourth owners, and they are beaten to death. The transmission guy even remarked, “I haven’t seen a LeSabre this clean in a few years. If you don’t want to fix it, I want to make you an offer on it.”
People think I’m insane to consider doing the work, but it’s already been down for about three weeks, and I miss having it. So, what would you do in this case? Hunt for something new? Or stay with what you know has worked up until now?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Sajeev answers:
This is a delightfully uplifting story/question, told with the perfect amount of context, and it even has an easy answer. You already answered the question when you suggested that you aren’t “overly attached to the car,” but you “miss having it.” The latter is how I feel every time I park my 1989 Lincoln Continental and use something else (from my collection of weird Fords) as a daily driver.
So many front-wheel-drive, full-sized American sedans from the 1980s to the 2000s do the new Toyota Camry commuting thing shockingly well. This class of “classic” car gets the job done so the more complex, prestigious, compromised, or fragile enthusiast vehicles in one’s fleet don’t have to do real work.
Your thoughts should no longer worry about financials, about throwing good money after bad. Don’t even think about finding a different set of problems car for $5000, because it’s okay to consider this Buick like your other cars. (Yes, I am projecting my personal beliefs upon Adam, but that’s what I’ve done on Piston Slap since its inception in 2009.)
So keep it, and get that rebuilt gearbox. I am glad you have two options, but as a fan of my 3.8-liter Lincoln’s 3.19:1 final drive ratio, you will likely regret losing the 3.05:1 gearing in your Dynaride (sorry, Grand Touring Suspension Package) equipped Buick. The quicker gearing is what makes these comfortable yachts fun to drive in modern times, even if they only have a wide-ratio four-speed gearbox. Pair this goodness with its more European suspension calibration, and a Buick LeSabre can be an affordable and almost fun boulevardier.
The 2.86:1 final drive isn’t end of the world, as it has fuel-sipping perks if you spend a lot of time on highways. But I would still pay the money to have your shop take the higher performance gearbox apart, assess what’s wrong and give you a list of needed parts. Remember that you are already going against conventional wisdom by keeping this LeSabre, so what’s another rack when you’re driving what you need and want?
It’s worth noting, too, that when you dive into a gearbox of any kind, it’s a good fix everything that’s fixable. Not doing so is a false economy that can come back to bite you later.
Playing parts hunter for the Buick is worth your time, because I suspect you are the type of person the Grand Touring package was meant to appeal to in the first place. We discussed how to find obsolete GM parts after we Piston Slapped another reader’s Pontiac Grand Prix STE, so I would start prepping by getting familiar with where Rock Auto keeps factory part numbers, and how to create eBay saved searches.
I’ll assume the two transmissions share many hard and soft parts, it’s just the stuff at or near the differential that could go bad. If all else fails, get a used differential/transaxle from car-part.com or LKQ for donor parts. But if the parts absolutely do not exist, throw away the disassembled transmission and get a remanufactured unit. (Or slam it together as cheaply as possible to make it a returnable core, if needed.)
I am optimistic you just need a new torque converter, a basic rebuild (since you are already in there), and I am confident your right foot will appreciate all this effort. It could be worse: You could have it as bad as this guy and his 1998 Chevrolet Lumina.
So fight the good fight, and take a stand against dumping perfectly good vehicles just because their short-term prospects are terribly resource-intensive. In the long term a 2000s GM sedan will serve you better than just about any other used car. Heck, it might be better than any late model vehicle, depending on their level of complexity (turbos, CVTs, lotsa computers, etc.), and the quality of the roads on your commute.
This LeSabre was built to last, even if that was a side effect of being less innovative/fun/prestigious as its competition was when new. This Buick deserves your best, and it will give it right back to you as the months and years pass.
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Fix the Buick. Unless the unibody is rotten, you can hardly replace it for the cost of the transmission. The car is a real American car, if you were ever in an accident you would most likely walk away. I find it hard to believe parts are hard to find. I was a trans tech at GM dealers for decades. This trans is very common and the final drive ratio has nothing to do with any of the internals.
I was faced with an automatic transmission problem on a 15 yr old ‘97 328is with 120k miles, probably a $5000 car at the time. It was either going to be $4000 for a 2 yr warranty rebuild or $800 for a 30 day warranty junkyard used unit – installed. Opted for the $800 option and had it running like a clock for another 6 yrs afterwards before selling off the car. If you know the junkyard/salvage/recycler with a decent policy I’d definitely do a used swap over and over again.
Buicks transverse mounted 6 cyl and front wheel drive makes it a low cost, used unit candidate. $4700 can get anyone a more better, more roomy, decent OMT (old man tan) car like a Marquis or Crown Vic.
Sajeev:
I love your reply to this writer. American sedans from the late 20th Century and the very early 21st are great cars. They are generally great driving cars that are comfortable, dependable and easy to service and repair. Unless the Buick in question is rusty, I would repair and run it. They will NEVER make cars like this again.
My wife purchased a 2023 Camry and it doesn’t compare to my 1992 Taurus LX. All of the gadgets on the new Camry drive me nuts. You need special $3,000 tool to change the rear brake pads. Recently, my wife had to quickly change lanes to avoid an accident and the “accident avoidance” software resisted her lane change.
I own a number of cars, including a BMW E30 and a C124 Mercedes, so not all of my cars are weird. But I’m probably the only writer on this platform who puts his Taurus up for the winter. It’s a great running car that has required less repair than any of my other cars. I love the car and don’t care whether anyone else likes old Tauruses or not.
So I say to the Buick LeSabre owner, fix it and service it like it was worth big money. Put synthetic ATF in the transmission, too.
Hats off to you, Steve. I haven’t had the chance to drive a Taurus after becoming an Essex Continental owner, but I’m pretty sure I know precisely what you feel every time I hop in this car. If I lived up north, I’d get a Ford Fusion as a winter beater and protect the bull!
I think Click and Clack once said, “Everyone should be so lucky as to have a car that the mechanic wants to buy from you.”
Personal opinion: it should never be about how much you paid for the car or what it is “worth”. It’s always about “if I put this money into the car, will it be reliable for the foreseeable future?” I always put it in terms of car payments: this repair I am making is “x” number of car payments. This from a guy who drives a 23 year old Ford Ranger with 205,000 miles and wouldn’t hesitate to drive it anywhere.
When the transmission slips, the pressure adapts will increase the line pressure to the point where the line pressure is at max and the pump is working hard. That causes the gear whine you are hearing. Typically this results in a P1811 fault code for the transmission pressure adapts at the max clip. Unless there is a shudder at 40mph where the torque converter locks up, it is not a torque converter. A good fluid flush should be step one. If they are dropping the pan, it is a good time to put in the updated 1-2, 2-3 accumulator piston kit. The kit is less than $100 and has been known to fix many with the same symptoms. I would not change the final drive ratio as the computer would need to be programmed with the new final drive ratio. This will cause the calculated vehicle speed to be off for the speedometer and could also negatively affect shift points. If you do rebuild, I would not think too much into the different warranties but I would read the fine print as typically the mail order reman does not cover R+R while the local shop warranty covers everything for the 12K miles. If something fails, it will most likely be a workmanship issue that happens early on. I’ve done both junk yard transmissions and local rebuilds but in this instance, these symptoms are known failure modes for 4T65 and it’s highly likely that the junk yard unit will exhibit the same problem or will have the same issues in the near future. The economics of spending more than you spent on the car to buy it comes down to a dollars per mile equation. The more you drive it, the cheaper that rebuilt transmission becomes. When its a car that I plan on keeping, I always spend the money and every mile after that large spend offsets the money invested.
I had a 1987 LeSabre coupe (with the Gran Touring package) that my dad bought new. The handling was really good, and the throttle response was great. Very good MPG, too. My oldest daughter drove it for 5 years after Dad got a new car, and then she “handed it up” to me, to drive my 83-mile RT to work in the winter. Due to a lot of rust, when the tranny started to fail a second time at about 170,000, I sold it. If it had not been getting rusty, I think I would have fixed the tranny again.
I recommend fixing this newer LeSabre. I do somehow doubt that the 12% difference in gear ratios noted would make much difference in the real world, though, in terms of acceleration.
In 1996 we needed a second car and after all of my research we settled on a Jeep Cherokee. I choose a red 2WD because I did not need 4WD in Southeastern Virginia. I told the salesman that I wanted this car/SUV to last 10 years.
Fast forward to today, that same red Jeep sits in my driveway and is my daily driver around town. It has 226000 miles on it and it starts every day. I have maintained it every year with what it needs to keep it going. I have changed the oil 71 times my self and this past October I replaced the water pump, radiator, hoses, belts, fan clutch and P/S pump because of a leak in the radiator and P/S pump. Four years ago I had the transmission rebuilt because it had a rough shift between 3rd & 4th gear.
This Jeep has sat outside in the sun and heat of Virginia Beach for 29 years. Three years ago I had it painted the original color and had the windows re-tinted. This Jeep has served both daughters in college, I refer to it as a well educated Jeep because it spent life at 4 universities.
My father was a Buick fan and he had 2 LeSabres, one was a 1983 RWD and a 1993 FWD. I drove both of them many times and wish I had them today.
I keep a car for a long time and in my garage (not outside like the Jeep) is my 1970 Chevrolet Monte Carlo that I have owned for over 50 years, it was my first car while starting college in 1974. This past year I had the engine restored and it runs and looks great. On the other side of my garage is our trip car, a 2001 Chevrolet Tahoe with 129000 miles that loves to do 80. This past summer I drove it to the Albany area in Upstate New York as well as Wilmington, NC to see family and friends. I was cruising between 70 & 80mph on the interstates with 4 people and their luggage on board and got between 18 & 20 mpg for both trips.
My wife says it is time to look for a new Tahoe, but I am not sure. She gets a new car every 3 years for around town. If I had your Buick, I would fix and drive it lovingly every day.
Had an 02 impala with 62k miles my mom bought new… GMs of this period were infamous for rust… Floors rotted, brake lines rotted.. Was a shame , ran like a top but rusted to Hell here in the northeast.. Like your lesabre.. I just bought a 93 525 Bimmer with 147k from the 2nd owner since 98… taking care of some deferred maintenance but damn the thing runs nice… It actually my fifth e34 now… I’m retired and just drive for the fun of it. Have a 98 328, 02 530 and a 63 comet s22 convertble.
Sajeev, to summarize “dance with the one that brought you” Fix the issues you described and rebuild the transmission and let her last you another 5-10 years. The annual cost of ownership is a single trip to Meijers.
As someone who works in GM parts for 34 years I say junk it!
You had the car for 4 years. You have the $3400. plus the 1500. in repairs. This totals 4900., or a little over 100/mo. to drive over the 4 years, A mechanic wants to buy it. Ask him to make you an offer. If you like the offer then you deduct the amount that you are going to sell it for from the 4900., that you have in the vehicle., then divide that by 4 years or 48 mos. You will find that you drove a car pretty reasonably over that period of time. Sure, you can put in a rebuilt gearbox for 4700., and get a 3 year warranty. But what else could it need.
Perhaps it is time to move on and find something else.
i agree with the general consensus of comments of fixing the tranny and keeping the car. with EGFST’s comments (and very good advise imo) aside, a few questions come to mind.
is there a transmission warning light on? are there any transmission related codes stored, or any other system codes for that matter? the noise heard from the tranny, is it heard while in ‘d’ with the vehicle not moving (brake pedal pressed/applied)? does the noise stop with the tranny in ‘p’ or ‘n’? does it fade away as the vehicle picks up speed?
has the pan been dropped for inspection, or did the trans shop give consultation based only on the noise?
working on my own car, i would install a quality reman torque converter, possibly the solenoid pack, fill/run/drain the atf at least once, then flush the cooler IF (and a fairly big IF) 1) there are no tranny related codes stored; 2) the current atf does not smell burnt and generally smells normal (it can even be a blackish color if smell is ok); 3) there is little to no debris or friction plate material in the pan.
or
having a reputable shop do the work, i would have the tranny rebuilt, including a reman torque converter. other than an oil pump, i doubt there would be any hard parts (well, maybe a couple) needing replacement. and i would find it difficult to believe any needed parts for the rebuild could not be sourced as new (hard parts defined as anything internal not normally needing replacement during a rebuild i.e. main shaft, clutch drums).
the 3800 v6 has a couple weak points but otherwise is one of the most durable, reliable engines. if it had half-decent maintenance before you bought it, it should go another 100k-200k mi without issue. oh, get that compressor clutch replaced, too!
This sounds simlar to a question I am having about my wife’s minivan. Although its alot newer (2011) with 117,000 miles on it. I had developed a misfire a while back and I have had it at one shop so far that told me it had a stuck valve and needed the head replaced. They said that I might as well replace both heads if i was having to do one. The quote from that shop was around $4,500. The guy told me that if he was me, he would take it and trade it in because the van wasn’t worth spending the money on it even with that low of mileage for a 2011. My take on it is that its paid for and I can’t go out and by another vehicle with that low of mileage for $4500. Most vehicles that are in that price range have atleast a couple hundred thosand miles and I wouldn’t know anything about their history for the most part. Atleast with my wife’s minivan, we have had it since practically new and know everything else that is wrong with it and I have done most of the maintence myself. My wife and I and I have talked about it and with the price of cars right now and the amount of a payment on one with lower mileage I believe we are going to just get hers fixed and drive it as long as we can. She is pretty attached to it too even though a newer vehicle is appealing but not having a car payment is more appealing! I believe you would be well served to get that Buick fixed as well and probally get many more years out of it. I can’t speak for the newer Buick’s but I had a 1986 Regal and that was the best car I ever had. Rode and ran great. Sure do miss that car!
I love my 2000 Buick.
It had around 180,000 miles when I bought it and has nearly 240,000 now. A couple axles, many oil changes, a few transmission fluid/filter changes, shocks/struts, brakes, and tires make the list of replacement work so far.
A friend who buys a new vehicle every few years always compliments the ride quality and asks the mileage when he’s in the car.
If ever needed, I’ll buy another one.