Piston Slap: This Sabre Rages Against a Throw-Away Society
Adam writes:
Sajeev,
Four years ago, I needed a cheap daily driver for my 65-mile commute. I found a one-senior-owner Buick LeSabre with 90,000 miles on it for $3400. As I drove more and more, I noticed some things such as an occasional hard shift and a shudder from the transmission when it shifted from 1st to 2nd, and an engine tick that appeared when the engine warmed up (turned out to be a cracked flex plate).
It has served its purpose well, never stranded me, and has been reliable. As for repairs during the past years, it has needed the following:
- Rear Air Shocks
- Tie Rod Ends
- Radiator
- Re-charge of the A/C
- Flex plate
I chalk up all the above to regular maintenance on a 19-year-old car with 113k miles, except for the flex plate. How that happened even stumped the mechanic.
Finally, the transmission has come to bite me, though. I have attached a video. I suspect that it’s probably the torque converter, as it whines in gear without an additional throttle input. I’ve always suspected it needed a pressure solenoid switch to solve the shudder and the hard shift issue that comes up occasionally.
I took it to a transmission shop, and guess who has a rare 3.05:1 gearset instead of the regular 2.86 gearset in all the other LeSabres? ME!
The shop said that since the 3.05 gear set comes with the Gran Touring suspension, he is having trouble finding a rebuild kit for it. So that leaves us with the following options:
- Plan A: Take the transmission apart and hope and pray that the parts it needs are available. If not, I’ll have to pay to put it back together broken. If all goes well, though, the price is $4,500, and a one-year, 12,000-mile warranty.
- Plan B: Purchase a rebuilt transmission and install with a three-year, 36,000 mile warranty for $4,700.
So here comes the dilemma: I have a 19-year-old car with 113k miles on it that I paid $3400 for, with roughly $1500 in repairs that now needs a large $4700 repair.
I also have two other vehicles that I don’t want to start driving daily. I’ve started looking around at what I could buy for $5k, and honestly, the options could be better. They’re usually younger but have way more miles than 113k, and are cosmetically challenged. I don’t mind driving something old, but I don’t want to drive something that looks beat up.
I had the Buick checked over, and other than needing the transmission work, the only current need is the air conditioner compressor clutch, which is a bit noisy and could stand to be replaced. However, this car doesn’t “feel” like it’s in a death spiral and on its last wheels. (I’ve owned those cars and know the signs!)
I’m not overly attached to the car; however, cosmetically, it’s very clean. Although you do see LeSabres still around, most of them are on their third and fourth owners, and they are beaten to death. The transmission guy even remarked, “I haven’t seen a LeSabre this clean in a few years. If you don’t want to fix it, I want to make you an offer on it.”
People think I’m insane to consider doing the work, but it’s already been down for about three weeks, and I miss having it. So, what would you do in this case? Hunt for something new? Or stay with what you know has worked up until now?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Sajeev answers:
This is a delightfully uplifting story/question, told with the perfect amount of context, and it even has an easy answer. You already answered the question when you suggested that you aren’t “overly attached to the car,” but you “miss having it.” The latter is how I feel every time I park my 1989 Lincoln Continental and use something else (from my collection of weird Fords) as a daily driver.
So many front-wheel-drive, full-sized American sedans from the 1980s to the 2000s do the new Toyota Camry commuting thing shockingly well. This class of “classic” car gets the job done so the more complex, prestigious, compromised, or fragile enthusiast vehicles in one’s fleet don’t have to do real work.
Your thoughts should no longer worry about financials, about throwing good money after bad. Don’t even think about finding a different set of problems car for $5000, because it’s okay to consider this Buick like your other cars. (Yes, I am projecting my personal beliefs upon Adam, but that’s what I’ve done on Piston Slap since its inception in 2009.)
So keep it, and get that rebuilt gearbox. I am glad you have two options, but as a fan of my 3.8-liter Lincoln’s 3.19:1 final drive ratio, you will likely regret losing the 3.05:1 gearing in your Dynaride (sorry, Grand Touring Suspension Package) equipped Buick. The quicker gearing is what makes these comfortable yachts fun to drive in modern times, even if they only have a wide-ratio four-speed gearbox. Pair this goodness with its more European suspension calibration, and a Buick LeSabre can be an affordable and almost fun boulevardier.
The 2.86:1 final drive isn’t end of the world, as it has fuel-sipping perks if you spend a lot of time on highways. But I would still pay the money to have your shop take the higher performance gearbox apart, assess what’s wrong and give you a list of needed parts. Remember that you are already going against conventional wisdom by keeping this LeSabre, so what’s another rack when you’re driving what you need and want?
It’s worth noting, too, that when you dive into a gearbox of any kind, it’s a good fix everything that’s fixable. Not doing so is a false economy that can come back to bite you later.
Playing parts hunter for the Buick is worth your time, because I suspect you are the type of person the Grand Touring package was meant to appeal to in the first place. We discussed how to find obsolete GM parts after we Piston Slapped another reader’s Pontiac Grand Prix STE, so I would start prepping by getting familiar with where Rock Auto keeps factory part numbers, and how to create eBay saved searches.
I’ll assume the two transmissions share many hard and soft parts, it’s just the stuff at or near the differential that could go bad. If all else fails, get a used differential/transaxle from car-part.com or LKQ for donor parts. But if the parts absolutely do not exist, throw away the disassembled transmission and get a remanufactured unit. (Or slam it together as cheaply as possible to make it a returnable core, if needed.)
I am optimistic you just need a new torque converter, a basic rebuild (since you are already in there), and I am confident your right foot will appreciate all this effort. It could be worse: You could have it as bad as this guy and his 1998 Chevrolet Lumina.
So fight the good fight, and take a stand against dumping perfectly good vehicles just because their short-term prospects are terribly resource-intensive. In the long term a 2000s GM sedan will serve you better than just about any other used car. Heck, it might be better than any late model vehicle, depending on their level of complexity (turbos, CVTs, lotsa computers, etc.), and the quality of the roads on your commute.
This LeSabre was built to last, even if that was a side effect of being less innovative/fun/prestigious as its competition was when new. This Buick deserves your best, and it will give it right back to you as the months and years pass.
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Here is the deal. You have a car that can easily go 350,000 miles cheaply. The cost of the few things you have is small compared to many FWD sedans.
These cars are not sexy or that exciting but it may be one of the best cars of its kind to own and operate.
You could go to another car but you would face issues if it is used and some may cost more. You also know this car so you hold the advantage here.
My parents had a 97 Lesabre touring edition. The car went for ever. The only fix needed was the rear brake lines that rusted. It also cracked an intake but that was under warranty.
It was sold to a family friend after we lost dad. It went over 300k miles before rust got to the frame while pushing 30 years old.
If you want a cheap car to save money this is it. If you don’t want a new car or you have a new car you want not as a daily driver fix this car.
Parts are cheap and mostly still available.
Also if you do bail there are a number of low Mike models out there. I have a neighbor with one and less than 50k miles. Most of these are owned by older folks that drive less or stopped driving.
Well of course thing one would be how much you trust the folks in the transmission shop. What exactly will they be replacing if you decide to have them do a rebuild ? From what I know many reputable remanufactured transmissions include upgrades for increased durability etc. 12,000 miles doesn’t seem like all that much. Maybe do the research and find a known to be reliable remanufactured unit and have it shipped and then installed?
FATSCO is a company with every transmission part known to man, even back to the original Hydra-matic. I’m sure they have everything you need to rebuild your transmission, even upgrades.
If it isn’t rotting out I would fix it.
If it is rotting out, well then that depends on how you deal with that –you might still fix it for the cost you have into it and the low mileage on the drivetrain.
I feel it’s worth the repair. Cheap, reliable cars are not always easy to find.
This is a no-brainer. If you don’t have the money….borrow it.
I do my own mechanicals, aside from automatic transmission rebuilds, so I might tend to come at this from a different direction. I would probably first change the torque converter to see if that solves the problem. There is probably a limited number of things that could cause that noise without turning your ATF into red or black neverseez. If you are going to use a shop, consider torque converter and new front pump. The second thing I would do is try a boneyard 2.86 transmission and see how much you regret the performance drop. If this is a daily driver, you probably aren’t going to care. Someone might need to do a little computer magic to get the speedo reading correctly though
I’d buy it from you and fix it! Had an 01 Park Ave with same expensive tranny that gave out after 22 years and Midwest rust running well with 250k on it. Would take another Park or LeSabre from that period any day. Especially a southern car.
This optimism is based on the good fortune I’ve had in the recent past, but I say grab a used transmission from a junkyard or wrecked vehicle, and roll the dice. I did this with success on my Volvo S60, and the nice thing about the Buick in comparison is that it is both more plentiful in salvage yards, and middle-America service garages don’t hang up when you tell them the make and model.
that would be my suggestion as well. A good used transmission should be about $500-1000
Back in 2000 I bought my dad a brand new Accord EX V6 to replace a used 1990 Legend (that I also bought him). He was 76 at the time and mostly drove it to work and errands locally in LA.
After he passed in 2011 I inherited the car but choose to leave it with my sister at his home she was caretaking until we could sell the house. The car was 11 years old and had less than 33k miles and was mechanically well maintained except for the last 4 years of his life when he was too ill.
Fast forward to 2013 when it was time to prep the house for sale. This gave me ample opportunity to drive the car and discover how overall great it still was – except the transmission!
Upon initial acceleration the tranny would slip and shift erratically to the point I thought, oh “shift” not this. It only had less than 34k miles so even though it had one of those infamous Honda/Acura 4-speeds known for premature eradication, I was determined to find a fix.
I called my Honda mechanic back in Phoenix and he gave me a suggestion. So I picked up a case of Honda OEM ATF, drained the old fluid which was a foul smelling sludge and refilled it with fresh. Then I drove it and immediately and noticed an improvement. I ran it for about 100 miles. Better, but not perfect. I repeated the process 3 more times and with each flush I could feel it running smoother and stronger until by the 4th change it was shifting like new.
As a bit of insurance I added an external transmission oil cooler. All these years later, in brutal Arizona heat, this much maligned transmission still runs strong! Though I do change the fluid religiously once a year…
Over the years I spared little expense it in keeping it like new, in fact this is how I am with all my cars, repainting it about 8 years ago, replacing the headlamps and weather seals from sun exposure, etc. overall the car has been very reliable, a little thirsty maybe due to the V6 averaging only 17mpg in mostly city driving, but still it’s a 24 year old car.
Fast forward to this past summer when the AC was blowing 15°F below normal and a metallic rattle was coming from under the car during light to moderate acceleration. After a couple visits to the mechanic we learned the compressor was getting worn and thecatalytic converter prematurely failing. This, after only 108k miles, how is that possible!?
Just like OG, we were faced with a similar dilemma, what now!? My upbringing and nature have always guided me too believe it’s more cost effective to maintain than to replace. Plus this was my last tangible connection with my dad so the choice was preordained.
The new compressor, dryer and condenser cost a little over $2k. But the converter, that was a bigger pill and was going to run close to $4k for a Honda OEM unit! After a lot of research we choose to let the mechanic replace the AC system but hold off on the cat.
I soon found an online dealer in Mass that could sell me a new one for about $2450 (less $150 core charge). I ordered it and installed it myself after watching numerous YT vids. Interestingly even though I have 2 Helm manuals for the car (the primary and V6 supplement) neither mentions anything about the cat or how to replace it.
This is where the YT vids really helped. I must say it was ridiculously easy despite my apprehension with rusted bolts. Fortunately the car lived in dry weather climate areas so they were easily removed. My wife still can’t believe I could do this so I’m her eyes I’m a hero.
The bottom line is, the car deserved to be saved if not for my own sentimentality but for because it’s the right thing to do. It made no sense to sell it or scrap it and replacing it with new was far less appealing. I’ve always been a car guy and loved new cars but over the last 20 years I find them to be far less desirable for various reasons.
Owning, maintaining and driving an older vintage car has an immeasurable sense of satisfaction I just don’t get from new cars. I dearly love my 1993 Accord SE which is a garage queen and spends time at a local dealer to display in their showroom attracting attention and offers from almost everyone who sees it.
To quote my late father, “if you take care of something, keep it a long time, it’s value will only increase…” He was right about a lot of things.
I have an ’04 that was doing the same transmission shudder. I bought a TransGo shift kit off of eBay and changed out the accumulator springs after watching a Youtube video of someone else doing it, it did not require removing the transmission, all done from underneath with the pan off. Put it back together with a new filter, cost about 70 bucks, and seems to be holding up really well. Still has an occasional hard 2nd gear shift but doesn’t do the shuddering anymore. It was my Grandpa’s car, and I intend to care for it as long as I can, and “run to fail”. Might be worth a try before doing a whole new transmission, it’s easy enough anyone can do it.
The 4T65E is one of the most common GM FWD 4 speeds ever made. I can’t believe a good independent trans shop can’t find the clutch/band kits for it. If it needs hard parts, go source a used donor from a cheap pick a part yard. Torque converter should also be very common.
As someone who would be supplying the labor myself, I would start scouring Marketplace/Craigslist/E-bay for one of the beater cars out there that have a compatible transmission. Buy it on the cheap, after test driving to make sure it shifts normally, and swap the whole deal into your car. Collect any other wear items from the donor and scrap the rest to recover some of the expense. Say you spend $1200 on a donor and get $300-$400 in scrap, you’ve spent $800 plus incidentals to get it back on the road. The trans in that Buick was not a troublesome unit so there’s an excellent chance to get a good used one.
Those Buicks were great cars and as some have said, if you buy another commuter to replace the LeSabre, it could cost you more to keep up. You know this car and it does what you need it to do, so invest and keep driving it – you won’t regret it!
Folks, this all made sense until side curtain airbags appeared. NHTSA determined that fatalities decreased by 31% in cars equipped with both side and side curtain airbags: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811882
My view now is that since a 2002 Golf with six airbags is a far safer car than just about anything built before that, it’s time to save the better examples of the older beasts for leisure driving, scrap the poor ones, and shift to beaters with all the airbags. YMMV—
And the concern trolls raise their ugly heads ready to suck the air out of a room